This 11 minute Flashes of Insight conversation asks whether the experience for Church ministers is an opportunity for the theology of reconciliation to grow into change.

It considers restorative justice a matter of putting things back together as they were, as it were by plastering Humpty Dumpty back together, or is it actually a way of going forward to something new?

Key issues in the discussion include

• is whether ‘putting Humpty Dumpty back together again is actually desirable?'
• how to go about restorative justice
• how well do we do restorative justice when as ministers, we may not have the capacity to reconcile
• how as ministers do ‘we do wrong'
• ministers and a capacity for empathy
• whether the theology of reconciliation is up to the task of facing restorative justice

The comments were made from Wales by Professor Thomas O'Loughlin in "Scapegoating: The Church's fall from grace", a Flashes of Insight conversation with Dr Joe Grayland, Dr James Alison in Spain and Sande Ramage in Palmerston North.

This Flashes of Insight conversation considers the impact on the church's fall from paradise, whether the church is being scapegoated, how the Church is dealing with this crisis and asks about real reform and restorative justice. It is a four-part conversation.

Host Joe Grayland asks if the sex abuse crisis will reconcile the Church with itself and with society or will it be a lost opportunity?

James Alison is an English Roman Catholic priest and theologian noted for his application of René Girard's anthropological theory to Christian systematic theology.

Alison says we all know what scapegoating is - it's when everybody gets together and blames someone for something that is not in fact their fault.

When we say that someone is a scapegoat, we're effectively saying they are falsely accused.

However, Alison says understanding the scapegoat mechanism goes back to something much more ancient. It is the initial way groups create unity and a coming together instead of destroying themselves in a frenzied all against all.

Alison says the group mysteriously finds it came together against one of their own number whom they had thrown out, and then recognised they were right to do so.

He describes it as a basic human act and an effective way of creating unity.

"It works to a certain extent in as far as we all gang up together against someone and throw them out, we become united. We suddenly have peace for a fairly short time."

The people involved think they've done the right thing because 'they've got' the person responsible.

Alison says the difficulty in this process is what he calls the "single-victim mechanism" - everybody calling them guilty for their own interests.

He says we live in a world where the innocence of the victim has become commonplace; the notion that the crucified one turned out to be God is commonplace.

"People are quite unaware of how different our world is in relation to victimhood than the ancient world was, to such an extent that now one of the ways in a violent tussle you try to achieve power is by claiming victimhood. The last thing you would do in the ancient world would be to claim victimhood because everybody knew in the ancient world the victor won."

Alison says modern society uses the scapegoat mechanism to play games to try to get positions of power - to be, as it were, consecrated within the society.

"Is it possible that we've got to a point where Christianity has led us to the situation where victimisation or victims are the victors, and that if you're not a victim, you're obviously a loser," asks Grayland.

Alsion says that Nietzsche thought something like that.

Nietzsche thought that the triumph of victims was a sign of everything that was wrong and that we should go back to having Ubermensch, who would be able to stand firm and not put up with all this victim nonsense.

Alison clarified that Nietzsche's view is not one he agrees with.

He says the challenge for the Church is not to be reactive to real change as it goes through the revolution we are experiencing at the moment.

Alison says he's noticed that some church officials tend to double down on the silliest and worst of their possible positions and make themselves more sacred in response to things coming out.

"Actually, as they do that we all learn what isn't really sacred."

Alison said it is important for the Church to recognise it is not talking about a script, it is not talking about a text, but it is talking about how to interpret 'a book'.

"I sometimes wonder whether this is what Paul was talking about - the catechism, that which holds back the coming of the kingdom.

"Whether he (Paul) had in mind the sense that the church is actually part of how humanity gets over the lynching thing by religious figures playing into the role."

Alison says 'fake religion' is actually how the most positive form of secularism emerges, not the negative.

"The negative forms of secularism are of course very easy to imagine, but the positive form - in other words, the creation of goodness, the ability to see through mechanisms of deceit, hypocrisy, etc. come about as we learn the failed attempt of the church to play the sacred role."

In a strongly worded response to the question, O'Loughlin compares the abuse crisis to being conned by a used-car salesman.

"I don't want to make this sound trivial, but…

"Have you ever been taken in by a used car merchant?

"I was taken in over 20 years ago by one. And you know, even now, I still kick myself.

"Why did I not see through it?

"… And if I ... if I ever saw that guy again, I would just want to deliver…

"So I feel embittered that I have been conned."

O'Loughlin says the Church has for so long held itself up quite explicitly as a beacon to the nations saying the Church sets the moral standards.

"We set the moral agenda, and I feel the part of the attack on the church today is the horror of feeling yourself conned.

"I don't think you can tell people you're bearing witness to the truth. And then tell downright lies," he said.

Ramage suggests that in terms of her experience of the restorative justice process, people have mixed perspectives to a point where the participants sometimes don't know which role they are playing.

She calls it the tension of the opposites and draws inspiration from the Christian image of Christ on the Cross.

"The image of Jesus on the cross - probably most of us can get the idea of when we're crucified and cannot find our way and we are just feeling like a victim persecuted.

"But if we step back and see the whole picture, including the two thieves on either side, I think that's the most powerful one because this is the victim in the tension of opposites that is not integrated.

"So the thief on one side that sees an 'I can have a new way,' the thief on the other side who says, 'nah, I don't want a bar of it'."

Ramage says she thinks the crucifixion is the most powerful image and, as Christians, it is something we somehow have to fit within this crisis.

"The tension is we are both offender and victim," she says.

The Flashes of Insight conversation centred around the responses to the abuse of power by Catholic clergy and religious.

The background to the conversation is René Girard's view of scapegoating.

"We want to thank you from the bottom of our hearts and say how proud we are of what you have given in the service of Christ", said the bishop who is also president of the church's governing body.

John also heaped praise on clergy who "held their nerve" and for being "light on their feet and discovering new and innovative ways to care for others".

He described the pandemic as the most significant event to affect humanity since the Second World War.

"The impact on our economy and national well-being has been profound," he said.

"It is perhaps too early to understand and describe completely how life is being reshaped, whether in the workplace, our communities, or even the effect on the global economy. The landscape of life is changing, and, to use the words of St John, admittedly entirely out of context, it is not yet clear what we will become."

"We are wondering what to take with us on the next stage of our journey, and what to lay down. We are conscious that the numbers of those who worship in person might be fewer than was the case pre-Covid, and that a diminished base of support will ask new questions about our mission, property, and finance.

"But external stimuli have always shaped Christian purpose and polity: the persecution of the Early Church led to the first missionary journeys, and the demand of new tasks led to the calling of the first deacons. What is significant has never been the size of the challenge, but the scale of the faithful response," said John who spoke in the changed context of ministry and possible new ways of being church.

Saying the pandemic is asking lots of questions of the Church, John indicated the Church in Wales will front-load it's priorities and finances to reflect the new realities and hopes.

"The ‘authority of the eternal yesterday' must not be a millstone around our necks, but provide a basis for a courageous embrace of what God is doing in the world around us.

"Mission always lies at the heart of faith, and being alive to God, to what might happen next, is part of remaining curious and open to new opportunity."

John said he expected diverse expressions of church to become more normal and that he is in no doubt that the hybrid of "mixed ecology" of church life is here to stay.

"As diverse expressions of church become more normal, there will be new questions still about how we grow vocations — to the priesthood, and also lay leaders, who will offer the support and direction needed", he said.

The bishop concluded his presidential address encouraging the church's governing body saying "What is significant has never been the size of the challenge, but the scale of the faithful response."

Source

• Church Times

She describes these people as 'lost opportunities'.

Young, a pastoral worker who once worked in a large diocese, says that city dioceses, hospitals, schools and parish communities are generally well resourced and have good systems in place, however, there is an issue on the "missionary edges".

As a sacramental church, the limited resources go first to priests who can celebrate sacraments Young told Flashes of Insight.

She thinks that people are missing out and the Church is sacrificing lots of opportunities by not being able to offer sacraments to people who are being cared for by those who love them and committed to them.

"Sacraments add just so much to ministry", she added.

Young says she loves the fact the Catholic Church is a sacrament-based church but wonders what might be when something so valuable to those on the margins is not available to them.

"Our church is perhaps sacrificing the ability to be there with people Jesus would have been with", she said.

Young says we love the Church but in these times need a lot of hope in Christ, as the Church continues to develop.

Kate Bell a theologian and catechist with the Palmerston North diocese in New Zealand makes the issue tangible.

She describes women's ministry, as, at times, "doing the role with our hand behind our backs and a gag in our mouths."

Bell says it is the Church that is making the sacrifice; the sacrifice and cost to the Church is the loss of potential not being brought into actuality.

It is a point that Jo Ayers, an Auckland theologian and author amplifies, saying she often wondered what would happen to the church if women went on strike for a generous amount of time.

Shifting the conversation back to liturgy, Ayers told Flashes of Insight that women's role of service in the community needs to be reflected in all areas of the liturgy; preaching, welcoming, blessing, missioning, breaking and distributing the bread and ultimately leading the Eucharist.

However, in an apparent contradiction, Ayers however says she is not advocating for women priests!

"A lot of women would not want to be part of priesthood at the moment", she said.

"Women are not into hierarchy and layers of clericalism".

With the conversation ebbing and flowing around ‘women sacrificing to belong to the Church' and the ‘Church's sacrifice by not having women fully involved', Fiona Dyball, a theologian and office holder at the Australian Catholic Bishops' Conference says the Church has to find a way forward so women can feel more a part of the Church's liturgy.

She recommends people read "Faithful Stewards of God's Grace" a document for lay pastoral ministers in the Australian church.

Warning of a potential fracture, Dyball says "If the Church does not engage people in the liturgy people will end up doing it for themselves".

Dyball says the Church, women and society are very different to even a few years back when women had a strong focus on the Church".

"It's good that women are not as involved. That's then, this is now".

Women have different things they want to put their lives into and she is glad people do not spend "every waking moment at the buildings".

Dyball emphasised the proper role of sacrifice, and that today it is primarily measured in time.

She was quick to respond saying women, people, are not cheap labour, and that it is important to know what gifts people have in order that they might rightfully offer them to the community.

She says it is just as important for people to know their boundaries.

There is little point to making sacrifices in the name of a power structure that no longer exists and is not serving the community today, she concludes.

She made the comment on Flashes of Insight, a conversation between herself, and fellow theologians, Fiona Dyball, Elizabeth Young and Jo Ayers.

The women discussed the newly approved ministries for women of Lector, Acolyte and Catechist.

"I think it is helpful that Canon Law has been changed and women are formally allowed into ministry.

"It's got to be helpful that women because of the ‘womenness' are no longer excluded from ministry.

However, her view is not all ‘clear water', Bell telling the conversation she has a slight concern that formal recognition of these ministries might alienate the baptised who have been performing them for a long time.

"The people of God, the baptised, might become further disenfranchised from ministry by yet another layer and another process."

While keen to see the introduction of formal ministries Bell does not want ministry to happen only when it is recognised.

"It's the job of all of us to be involved," she said.

Host, Joe Grayland politely suggested Bell was ‘sitting on the fence'.

Pushing her, he made the choice concrete, asking would she support the introduction of these ministries at the Palmerston North Cathedral. (Where Bell works).

Bell ‘weighed up the balance' telling Flashes of Insight that while in the past the parish there was less formality involved with those ministering as Catechist she will support the introduction of the ministry.

"The ministry of Catechist would be perfect for those ministering in the area of marriage preparation", she said.

It is a point echoed by Fiona Dyball, adding that Pope Francis' statement makes the changes very clear.

"It is obviously something very dear to his heart", she said.

Dyball said that women have been performing these ministries for a long time, but in some places, it was said that women do not fit these roles and so were prevented from doing them.

She describes the changes as "a welcome clarity; because these things matter".

The Church has known for a long time that women have these gifts Dyball says.

She sees this as an important step for the church to legitimately use the gifts to help it accomplish its mission, in its service of the community.

Jo Ayers an Auckland theologian and lecturer however took a different perspective.

Responding to Dyball, Ayers said, "I was going to say one thing but Fiona's nearly persuaded that the institute of Acolyte and Reader is a good thing."

The persuasion was a near thing as Ayers went on to describe the institution of these ministries for women as, "crumbs from the table" and "another layer of clericalism.

Ayers says she is looking for real power-sharing.

However, Elizabeth Young RSM, a theologian and pastoral worker in Forbes echoes Dyball, but with a difference, saying it is important for people taking part and for those receiving the benefits of the service to know the minister is authorized.

"Signs make a real difference", she said and so she welcomes that these ministries are now officially open to women.

• Kate Bell, Elizabeth Young RSM, Fiona Dyball, Jo Ayers

A weekly ‘must-read' for informed Catholics, the Letter shapes and unravels the burning issues of the day in the Vatican and the Church.

The conversation on synodality offers more than "flashes" and raises important questions for the Church to consider, wrote Letter author Robert Mickens.

Referring to an hour-long conversation hosted by Dr Joe Grayland of Palmerston North between Cardinal John Dew, (Wellington), Archbishop Mark Coleridge (Brisbane) and Professor Thomas O'Loughlin (Nottingham), Mickens says it was "well worth the time" and "went quickly."

"All four of these priests offered more than just "flashes" of insight regarding synodality. They also raised important questions about this new and not always clear path the Jesuit pope has pushed the Church to embark upon," he wrote.

Speaking with CathNews from Sydney, one of the originators of "Flashes of Insight", Michael Kelly SJ, is pleased Flashes of Insight influenced Mickens sufficiently to highlight it in his Letter from Rome.

"Against a backdrop of a synod in Germany and media talk about schism, La Croix International editor Robert Mickens obviously saw value in the Flashes of Insight conversation," Kelly said.

"It (Flashes of Insight) is an obvious outcome of what the technology allows us to do when realizing value out of what is a global Catholic community," he said.

Kelly said that "people all over the world have different insights into the same events and Flashes of Insight appreciates this difference in its assessment in things we actually share."

While this type of technology has been around for several years it is only recently being more universally embraced, Kelly said.

He acknowledges it is ‘early days' for Flashes of Insight but is hopeful.

Calling it a great opportunity he says starting something afresh is fraught.

"I have some appreciation of how difficult it is to start something locally, let alone virtually but we've got the technology."

"Jesus used a technology of his time, a boat, and went out on the water to address the crowds from a better vantage point."

"We've got the internet and a range of new tools."

"It's about the mission and we're giving it a crack."

Kelly is particularly hopeful that those who engage in the process, either by participating in the conversations, joining the audience, watching, and or commenting, will benefit.

He hopes people might also share Flashes of Insight.

Inviting people to join the conversation, Kelly said Flashes of Insight is dialogue rather than a formal didactic approach.

"I've been rather encouraged, and particularly surprised how much more unworriedly critical a vast number of people, including cardinals and bishops have been".

He's calling the Vatican's same-sex blessing statement "a shot in the foot".

James Alison spoke with Professor Thomas O'Loughlin, Fr Michael Kelly SJ, hosted by Dr Joe Grayland on Flashes of Insight.

He characterised the Vatican's document as a dialogue that is failing to be dialogical.

Alison says the Vatican's statement is an attempt to shut down ‘horizontal conversation' between people by introducing a ‘vertical directive'.

The Vatican is trying to place a trump card he claims.

"It is essentially saying you can't have this discussion because I'm, right".

In this way, the Vatican's same sex blessing statement is attempting to introduce a ‘vertical absolutism into a horizontal discussion'.

One of the issues at play making this dialogue difficult is the question of authority when it comes to Natural Law, Alison noted.

"I am assuming there is a good understanding" but it must be ‘delivered to us horizontally, as something reasonable to understand' he said.

Alison says it is difficult when people hold on to a particular understanding of Natural Law that is no longer reasonable to everybody's reason.

Professor Thomas O'Loughlin picked up on a false understanding of Natural Law that equates Natural Law with a law of physics, such as the Law of Gravity.

O'Loughlin points out that Natural Law is not a perfectly deductive system but an ‘ordinance of reason' that helps us ‘make sense of reality around us' he said.

Fr Kelly said that part of the problem with the Vatican's same sex blessing statement is the process of having an answer and searching for question to fit it.

James Alison and Pope Francis

James Alison is known for his firm but patient insistence on truthfulness in matters gay as an ordinary part of basic Christianity, and for his pastoral outreach in the same sphere.

‘In trouble' for his pastoral outreach, the Congregation for the Clergy dismissed him from the clerical state, forbidding him from teaching, preaching, or presiding.

However, on 2 July 2017, Pope Francis called Alison directly telling him, "I want you to walk with deep interior freedom, following the Spirit of Jesus. And I give you the power of the keys".

Alison understood from this that Pope Francis did not perceive the congregation's decision as binding; that he treated him as a priest giving him universal jurisdiction to hear confessions and preach, the two faculties traditionally associated with the power of the keys.

Alison noted that this was how Pope Francis had acted towards those he appointed as "Mercy Priests" During the 2016 Jubilee of Mercy.

This is the first of three conversations with James Alison at Flashes of Insight.

Flashes of Insight is a video conversation that began as a way of reflecting on Church liturgy during COVID.

To get part two and part three of these conversations and more, please either "Subscribe" on YouTube, or if you would like to part of a live audience in the future, sign up at Flashes of Insight.

The comments are from Thomas O'Loughlin, emeritus professor of Historical Theology at the University of Nottingham and Director of Studia Traditionis Theologiae.

"There are some things Zoom and YouTube just won't do because real experiences are whole human experiences," O'Loughlin said.

"Can you send an apple by email?" he asked.

He says he will accept doing Mass online when people give up going out to dine with others and when people dine alone at home with pre-packaged food and say it is as rich an experience as it is eating and drinking with friends.

People wanting to have Mass on their TV or computer at home and priests supplying it sounds a warning about the real nature of the community, he said.

"Eucharist makes little sense without a community."

Challenging the meeting, O'Loughlin posed the question as to whether the Church had stopped being a real community and is being reduced to religious ideology.

He sounded a warning that we may be reducing the Eucharist to just getting communion, almost makes it a commodity!

O'Loughlin said the Church has a wealth of spirituality it can call on during COVID-19 lockdown and questioned why we opted for the "summit" experience.

He says he agrees that Mass is the summit of Christian prayer but suggested perhaps the Church has forgotten the hinterland.

O'Loughlin said that the Liturgy of the Hours, shared prayer, Lectio Divina, prayer together and scripture study we just some of the examples from the Church's spiritual tradition that respects the characteristics of the liturgy and that are easily adapted to a virtual environment.

"Why did we pick on something so physical such as eating and drinking?" O'Loughlin asked.

Spiritual Communion

Questioned on whether it was appropriate to use the readings of the day and make a "spiritual communion," O'Loughlin sounded a stern warning.

He observed that spiritual communion came from the time when only priests received communion and was developed by the heretical Jansenists to a point were nuns were not seen as worthy of physically receiving communion.

Spiritual communion "is tied up with notions of unworthiness and impurity" and it is a part of a moral theology we left long ago, he said.

Flashes of Insight

O'Loughlin made the comments in an international conversation hosted by CathNews on Zoom and as part of its "Flashes of Insight" series produced in association with La-Croix International.

Host of the conversation, Dr Joseph Grayland, Director of Liturgy in the Palmerston North Diocese, New Zealand, says the idea for "Let's Talk Liturgy" came about due to the disruption to worship brought about through the global COVID-19 pandemic.

Grayland says the COVID-19 pandemic has impacted laity and clergy alike.

"For many people, the online Mass, viewed from the living room was sufficient, they didn't have to go out and it fulfilled the need for Sunday Mass."

"The priests also liked doing this because it was readily identifiable as part of their mission".

Labelling online video Mass as a form of clericalism, Grayland says there are real concerns around the passive, observer approach and the personal nature of the "priest's Mass."

Flashes of Insight - Let's Talk Liturgy is, therefore, an opportunity for people to discuss and consider the nature of liturgy in an international context.

Over 80 people from the UK, Australia, the Pacific are involved in the conversation.

The second round of conversations continued last evening and at least one more round is planned.

Watch "Can you send an apple by email".

The COVID-19 pandemic has intensified the risk elements in the Church's sexual abuse response, says Fr Hans Zollner SJ.

Zollner is the leading Rome based specialist in addressing the scourge of sex abuse in Catholic institutions.

With less money in circulation, he is urging civil and church societies not to blur their focus nor cut expenditure on safeguarding.

"I do hope that we in the church will go another way and really keep on investing in safeguarding because this is for the safety of those who need most protection", he told Michael Kelly SJ on Flashes of Insight.

"I think it is quite evident to many who are working in this field of safeguarding of minors and vulnerable adults that safeguarding has been relegated down the line because now the almost single focus is on health and the economy", he said.

Zollner said that we all know that abuse is happening in all quarters of society.

Zollner said that unfortunately during the lockdown, society is seeing an increase in those reporting violent behaviours at home and that we can only presume that these behaviours are not only physical violence but sexual and physical violence too.

The very moment when these vulnerable people need more help the social systems can't intervene and those who have been hurt have no place to go, he said.

Zollner told Michael Kelly that while the response varies from country to country, the most important thing the Church has learned is that in order to bring about justice it is important to listen to victims and that listening to victims helps change their attitude to life and helps people to heal.

"We cannot work in the area of safeguarding if you don't really take seriously the concerns of victims", Zollner said.

However, he says that these days every year the Catholic Church trains hundreds of thousands of people around the globe in safeguarding and that it is something that even in an economic downturn we really need to commit to seriously and persistently.

As Professor of Psychology at the Gregorian University in Rome Zollner is also a member of key Vatican committees and consults to national churches throughout the world.

Zollner has an unmatched body of experience and competence to say how the Church is handling the whole catastrophe of sexual abuse.

The Hans Zollner interview is the first in a new video series, "Flashes of Insight", which features key personalities on issues that matter to Catholics.

Flashes of Insight is a collaboration between La Croix International and CathNews NZ.