Although I disagree with him, I accept that we are not going to see women deacons during his pontificate.

But if Francis or anyone else opposes ordaining women deacons, there is a simple solution: stop ordaining anyone as deacons, and let both women and men serve many of the same functions as catechists.

Women deacons - past present and future

The topic of women deacons has caused a good deal of controversy of late: Francis raised hopes that women might be ordained deacons in 2016, when he created a commission to examine the history of women deacons.

This was in response to a request from the International Union of Superiors General, which represents some 600,000 religious women around the world. A second commission to study the possibility of women deacons was formed in 2020.

Sadly, the reports of these commissions were never made public.

At last year's synod, the topic of women deacons was again discussed and received strong support from many delegates, especially the women delegates.

However, this year the Pope disappointed many by removing the topic from the synod agenda and setting up yet another commission to study the issue, which will report back in 2025.

And when asked in his May interview with CBS News about women's ordination, the pope gave a flat "no" to women deacons.

He seemed to believe that women who acted as deacons in the early Church were not ordained, although RNS columnist Phyllis Zagano and others have done extensive historical research showing they were in fact ordained.

Deacons and catechists

Deacons cannot celebrate Mass, hear confessions or anoint the sick, but they can baptize, preach at Mass and preside over weddings and funerals.

As ordained ministers, they are members of the clergy, not laypersons. Permanent deacons remain deacons all their lives, whereas transitional deacons are eventually ordained priests.

The permanent diaconate was revived for the Catholic Church in the 1960s by the Second Vatican Council, where the council fathers thought it would be helpful in mission territories.

But the hope that permanent deacons would spread the word in Africa, southern Asia and other places traditionally considered missionary lands never came to pass.

Today the United States is home to almost 20,000 of the 50,150 Catholic deacons in the world, or about 40 percent, according to the Vatican Statistical Yearbook.

The U.S. and Europe combined have more than two-thirds of the world's deacons.

There are only 500 or so deacons in all of Africa, fewer than in the Archdiocese of Chicago, which has more than 850.

Instead, Africa's Catholic bishops prefer catechists, who may be men or women.

There are more than 450,000 catechists in Africa.

They teach the faith, hold Bible study, run small Christian communities, prepare people to receive the sacraments and do Communion services when priests are not available.

The African bishops put a great deal of resources into training catechists.

Lay vs. ordained Catholics

Those who advocate women deacons point out that only the ordained, whether deacons or priests, can give homilies at Mass or preside over weddings.

Catechists can do neither, and expanding their role would neither give women a greater role in the Church nor expand the number of people who can minister to the faithful.

But in the case of giving homilies, this is simply canon law and can be changed, and laypeople can be delegated in many circumstances to preside at a wedding.

The ministers of the sacrament of marriage are the couple, not the priest or deacon, who only witness the marriage for the Church.

Similarly, lay people may preside at funerals without a Mass. And any layperson, even a non-Catholic, can baptize.

In truth, there is nothing a deacon can do that a layperson cannot do.

I am not saying that many male deacons do not do wonderful work for the church. I am simply saying that they could do the same work without ordination.

Concerning clericalism

The diaconate has drawbacks that catechists do not.

As clerics, the diocese is financially responsible for them under canon law.

If a deacon's wife dies, he cannot remarry unless he gets a dispensation, which is not always granted. If a deacon gets in trouble, the Church must use the same complicated canonical process used for laicising priests.

Limiting the diaconate and priesthood to men is painful for many women in the church, but if we cannot ordain women as deacons, there is no reason we have to ordain men.

If the point of ordination is simply to give the deacon more status, this is another form of clericalism.

There are not enough priests, which means that people do without the Eucharist, without confession and without the anointing of the sick. Too many Catholics die without the sacraments because there is no priest available.

If deacons were allowed in emergencies to perform the latter two sacraments, they would have something important to do that a layperson cannot do.

But as they cannot, we can do without them. The church existed for centuries without the permanent diaconate.

If the church doesn't need women deacons, it doesn't need men deacons either.

The U.S. church would do well to follow the example of the African church and forget about deacons and develop a catechists' ministry.

• First published by Religion News Service
• The Rev. Thomas J. Reese, a Jesuit priest, is a Senior Analyst at RNS.

Joe Grayland - What's the point of having deacons

You've written a lot about the diaconate and women as deacons.

So I'm going to start because, coming with a little bit of a parish priest appreciation, it's like, why do I need a deacon?

What I need is an assistant priest.

So, why do we need deacons?

Why do we have them at all?

What's the purpose and the point?

Phyllis Zagano

Well, you know, that is the situation the Church was in since the 12th century.

And I think the Church found itself devoid of the diaconate when the priests, mostly the priests in Rome, but priests in other places in Europe, were getting more and more annoyed that the fellow who was going to be elected as bishop was a deacon.

And so when we talk about the diaconate, we're talking about many, many different things.

We talk about the diaconate today, I have the same question.

What good is the diaconate?

Why would anybody want to be a deacon, particularly a woman?

Why would a woman want to be a deacon?

And why would a parish priest want to have a deacon?

Well, if you can't have an assistant priest, if you're not knitting one in the basement these days, you're well off to have a deacon.

But I don't think that's the only reason to have a deacon. When we think of the diaconate as it is, it's about its liturgical functions.

The deacon can do the wedding, the deacon can do the baptism, the deacon can do the funeral.

The diaconate to me is really bringing the Gospel in action to the people of God.

So it's the deacon, really historically, who managed the Church's charity.

And if we really recover the diaconate today, I think the deacon would be the one to help get the checkbook out of the pastor's hands and spread the wealth around, take care of the poor.

I really think that that's what it's about, evangelisation and taking care of the poor.

Joe Grayland - So what about transitional deacons?

Okay, so what do you think then about transitional deacons?

Do they have a point in your opinion?

Phyllis Zagano

Well, there's one diaconate and the diaconate is still a stage on the way to priesthood.

But when we think of what they call improperly, actually, the transitional diaconate, as opposed to the improperly called permanent diaconate, when we think of the diaconate as a stage on the way to priesthood, it is, I think, a necessary training ground for priests.

But I don't know that it's necessary at all, really.

Many people have written on this. I really haven't written that much about it, but a lot of people have said there's no reason to ordain anyone a deacon before that person's ordained a priest.

So, it's what we do.

It's our custom now.

It is confusing.

I don't like the term transitional deacon any more than I like the term permanent deacon.

But it's what we have.

And I don't think it's going to change.

Joe Grayland - Why bother about deacons?

Where does your love and interest for the diaconate come from?

What's influenced you over the years to even bother with the whole thing, given how difficult it can be?

Phyllis Zagano

Well, how difficult the whole Church can be.

I think the love is the love of the Gospel.

And the job of the deacon is to preach the Gospel, to spread the Gospel, to bring, as William Deitwig says, "drag the ambo to the streets."

And I just found myself in a situation, a position when I was finishing my doctorate actually, of learning about the diaconate, learning that there had been women in the diaconate, and marching myself into the local seminary and telling them I wanted to study to be a deacon.

And I stayed there for about a year, taking courses, mostly part-time.

But the encouragement came from the Papal Nuncio to the United States, actually.

When I was at the seminary, there were a couple of fellows who were not what we call lifers.

They had finished college and were just starting their graduate studies there.

Everybody else in the seminary had been in the system for eight or ten years.

And they said, "Well, the Nuncio's coming. How's your Cassock and Sash?" - which I didn't have.

So I wore a yellow pantsuit.

Joe Grayland: And they saw you coming!

Phyllis Zagano: They kind of noticed me.

We sat not in the chapel, but in the refectory. My friends set me on the end so that when the Nuncio and the bishop walked by, it was really hard to miss.

And the bishop, who knew me; the bishop had played basketball with my father.

The bishop looked down and said, "Phyllis, what are you doing here?"

I said, "I'm studying".

So soon enough, a lovely young priest came to me and said, "The Nuncio would like to see you in the front hall."

So I went.

And it was Archbishop Jadot, and he interviewed me for 20 minutes about a vocation to the diaconate.

And he said, "Don't quit."

And so, you know, then I went, I finished my doctorate, I was teaching, I was working for John Cardinal O'Connor.

I actually got a request before I started working for O'Connor as Archbishop of New York. I actually worked first in the military archdiocese.

I got a request from the director of vocations for the Archdiocese of New York that this Vicar General of the Military Ordinariate, as it was at the time, John O'Connor, wanted to know how to get more women in chaplaincy in the military.

So I said, "Tell him to ordain us."

And she came back and said, "He wants a longer answer."

So I wrote a big paper.

And I gave an equivalency of military rank and structure, particularly Navy rank and structure, talking about enlisted and warrant grades and officer grades, and the way that a warrant grade could be established for the diaconate.

The diaconate was certainly a ministry that the Catholic chaplaincies could use in the American military.

So he asked to see me, and I went in, and of course the fight was on.

And he encouraged me, he outlined with me my first book, Holy Saturday.

He told me that he would get it to the Pope.

I said, "Oh, you don't know the Pope."

Well, he did, and he ended up as the Archbishop of New York, and I worked for him.

So I just continued the studies, continued my own work, but also continued interest, training as a spiritual director, working where I could in chaplaincies and church-related entities.

Joe Grayland - Woman suing the Church

I wonder whether you've heard about the 62-year-old woman in Belgium who's suing the church, the Belgian church, because they won't allow her to become a diaconess.

Do you think, there's lots of things going on there.

Do you think it's a matter of justice?

Would you agree with what she's doing?

You know, even though I'm not asking you to understand everything, you know, you probably don't know her personally, but do you think the idea is good, or is it a waste of time?

Phyllis Zagano

Is it a matter of justice that she do this? Well, justice for whom?

You know, the question, if it's justice for the Church, if the Church deserves the ministry of women and its diaconate, then the conversation needs to be concluded in a positive manner.

It has been suggested to me to sue in ecclesiastical court, the restrictions against women and the diaconate.

It's not something I've pursued, certainly, or even studied.

But I would say she's not asking to be a diaconess, she's asking to be a deacon, unless she is in the Eastern tradition.

And I will tell you that on May 2nd of this year in Harare, Zimbabwe, the Greek Orthodox Archbishop of Africa ordained a woman a diaconess.

And so there is a movement, particularly now with our older cousins, explaining that this is truly a sacramental ministry to which women can be called.

So I don't know anything about what's going on in Belgium.

It's interesting, but I don't find going to the courts helpful in really in most any controversy.

Joe Grayland - Was the woman ordained a deacon

I want to come to an example I was reading as well of the woman who was ordained a deacon.

So, some questions were raised in the German media, the Catholic media, here in Germany, and the questions were really: Was it right or worthwhile for one part of an Orthodox communion to operate without having consulted the rest?

So that's one question.

But more specifically for the diaconate is, in what manner or form was this woman ordained?

So is it a sacerdotial thing that she's received?

Is it a laying on of hands?

Is it an institution?

What words would we use in the Roman church, if you like, or in the Western world to describe what happened to her in terms of ritual?

And also to describe, would we use the word ontological change in terms of...

I know, yes, I can see your heads going, God help us.

But it is a real problem, which you actually address in your book.

But it's that concept of, was she ontologically changed?

Did the ritual provide that ontological ritualiszation?

What happened there?

Phyllis Zagano

I'm not going to get into the ontological debate, but I will tell you, I've seen photographs of the ordination.

She had the laying on of hands inside the iconostasis.

The ritual was the ordination ritual for the Orthodox church.

It's part of the section, or Harare is part of the Patriarchate of Alexandria, which agreed, and also with the agreement, as I understand it, of His All Holiness Bartholomew.

So, it was not so much a departure that it may have been presented in the German papers.

Maybe four or five years ago, there was another ordination in another part of Africa.

And that was more likely an ordination to the subdiaconate, which is still a major order.

But the women there, the five women there, three religious and two lay people or vice versa, were ordained.

And the intent of the bishop at that time was to ordain them to the diaconate, not to the subdiaconate.

However, American money interests said that if he did that, they would pull their money from him.

So it was a subdiaconal ordination, and that's all I know about that.

But I will say that the one in Harare, and I haven't spoken, an American named Dr Carrie Frost was there.

I've spoken to her before, but not since.

She was there to witness it, and she was assuring me that it would be a liturgically correct Greek Orthodox ordination, which is to a major order, and that the woman would be considered a member of the clergy and a deacon.

She wanted me to know there are women deacons in Bulgaria.

There are women deacons in certain places of the Orthodox world that we really don't hear about, and they do proclaim the Gospel.

And they're not all women religious.

And this particular woman is not a religious.

She will be what might be termed a social service deacon.

She's not a monastic deacon.

She'll be out there working with the people, and that was the intent of the bishop, the ordaining bishop.

That's what he said he wanted.

Joe Grayland - The Gospel with hands and feet

So he wanted in many ways then to go back to the roots that you talked about at the beginning of our conversation, that taking the checkbook away from the pastor, I think, was the phrase you used, but getting out there and being part of that social outreach of the church, you know, where the Gospel actually has feet and hands and an intention beyond a proclamation within the liturgy or a homily without reality behind it.

I think it's interesting, don't you think, that if Orthodoxy moves in this way, do you think it makes it easier for Roman Catholicism to follow on?

Do we need them to take the lead rather than the Anglicans?

Phyllis Zagano

Well, I'll tell you, years ago, one woman, a Greek Orthodox woman, spoke with His All Holiness in Constantinople, and he said, well, you know, we don't want to get ahead of the Romans on this.

And another woman I know, a great funder actually in Boston, spoke to Cardinal Sean O'Malley, and he said, well, we don't want to get ahead of the Orthodox on this.

And, of course, three women speaking together said, we could figure this out pretty easily, boys.

I think it's helpful that the Orthodox are reclaiming their tradition.

And the most important thing is that you use the word "sacerdotal ordination," the diaconal ordination is not a sacerdotal ordination.

Pope Benedict XVI, with omnium in mentum in 2009, really echoed the words of the catechism, which had been promulgated, what, in 1983, that basically the diaconate is not the priesthood.

And we see this in Lumen Gentium 29.

We see it in many, many places, that the diaconate is clearly not part of the priesthood, which really rebounds to your question about the so-called transitional and permanent diaconates.

The diaconate is part of holy orders, but it's not part of the priesthood.

And to get that through, the minds that govern the decisions in the Church, I think is the most important barrier that we must overcome.

There is no need, no reason, to assume that an individual ordained as a deacon will actually become a priest.

However, with the work of Gresham in the codification of the Cursus Honorum, at the time you could not be ordained a deacon unless you were, for the most part, going to be ordained a priest.

That's really where the problem is, and it's eight, nine centuries old.

So it's a steep hill to climb.

And I think it's a question of a greater understanding that's needed in the church on both sides of the altar rail on what exactly is the diaconate and how can the diaconate be part of the circle.

Joe Grayland - Catholic Social teaching, Synodality and Women

I want to move the circle on a little bit.

Your recent book, Just Church, was a fascinating read: Catholic Social Teachings, Synodality, and Women.

Why did you put those three elements together?

Phyllis Zagano

Well, the book actually came out a little while ago.

It was completed before the most recent meeting of the Synod.

Catholic Social Teaching, I found an interesting way to enter how women have been discussed in the church.

And of course, I was interested in the way the Synod would be and is discussing the questions relative to women in the church.

So, I just felt there'd be a one, two, or three step, and we first have to understand what Catholic Social Teaching is.

We can take a look at how Catholic Social Teaching has spoken about women, which I do.

Then we can try to understand what is Synodality, and then see how these two concepts have affected the discussion about women in the church and how they might affect the discussion going forward.

The last time we spoke, three years ago, I think, on this program, and at the time I read a letter from someone who I said was a bishop, who I knew, actually was a Jesuit bishop.

Well, actually, I didn't tell you it was from the Pope.

And what he wrote to me, now he wrote me this in 2020.

So, this is one year before the Synod was announced.

And he talks about discernment.

He thanks me for my work and how relevant it is to the question of discernment.

And I'll read you the paragraph that I read on your program three years ago.

"Discernment is not an organisational technique and not even a passing fashion, but it is an interior attitude rooted in an act of faith.

"Discernment is the method and at the same time the goal that we propose.

"It is based on the belief that God is at work in the history of the world, in the events of life, in the people we meet and speak to us.

"This is why we are called to listen to what the Spirit suggests to us with often unpredictable ways and directions."

And he goes on to talk a little bit more about that.

But I don't even think I got it.

I don't think I understood what he was saying in 2020.

And I think we are all trying to grasp.

And I think, you know, I'm trained as an Ignatian director.

Why didn't I get it?

I had been told that the Holy Father was waiting to hear the voice of the Spirit on the question of women in the diaconate.

I think genuinely, and going back to the book, genuinely, that is what I was setting up, and that is what is happening.

Joe Grayland - Taking the Gospel to the streets

We see that Catholic social teaching has taken the Gospel to the streets.

We see a growing understanding of what is synodality, what is discernment.

And now we can take a look at the question of women.

Do we need deacons, such as you asked?

Do we need women deacons, such as you suggest?

These are things to be discerned and carefully discerned.

Can I just go back to some things in your book.

On page 25, you talk a little bit about the UN and what they've been up trying to do.

And you say, not in your words, but in mine, that the Church remains at odds with a lot of these sort of statements.

You know, that we've got, you don't say this so much, but we've got all of this language, all of this intentional language around the place of women and the place and families and everything like this.

But when it comes down to it, maybe the point is that lay people cooperate with power, but they don't share it.

This is an example that comes out of the Australian Plenary Council, you know, and their vote on the diaconate for women.

And I'm just wondering whether, again, another quote from page nine, which I thought was really cool, ontological equality, while also admitting hierarchical subordination.

And so, taken out of context, you know, which is the perfect thing for an interviewer to do, taken out of context, putting all of those things together.

What do you think is the big problem, not the problem, or the challenge that the Church is facing in terms of laity being involved and being included, being activated, but more particularly in terms of women being included?

And then I suppose it comes down to the very particular question around women in the deaconate, which I think is very particular.

But could you take us back up out of the roots, to the top of the grass, and give us an overall view of where you see the Church being at odds with the reality of the world in which many Western Christian Catholic women live?

Phyllis Zagano

Well, you know, Joe, I think the Church will always be at odds with the world as it is typified.

I've just been invited to debate at the Cambridge Union in the UK that feminism is incompatible with religion.

And I wrote them back and said, please define your terms, because if you're talking about feminism that is pro-abortion, etc., of course, if you're talking about feminism that says, no, excuse me, women can do jobs just as men can do, and there's really no restriction, well then, no, it's not.

And in fact, that is something that the Church is, that religion needs to support.

When you talk about authority in the Church, and you reference the term cooperate, I know you were thinking about Canon 129, which was actually written by Joseph Ratzinger, with the exception of one comma.

It went straight into the 1983 Code of Canon Law, that basically lay people can cooperate but not share in governance.

And that is where the tension lies.

And in fact, in terms of the somewhat significant advances that Pope Francis has made in terms of giving women position in the Curia, it's still management, not ministry.

The jobs are ancillary to the spreading of the gospel, not that they're not necessary, but they don't include women at the altar, they don't include women at the ambo, they don't include women in an official capacity, I think, managing the Church's charity.

Except, you know, it's certainly legally, there are ways to do it.

But I think when we, and they certainly don't include women as single judges, you have to be a cleric to be a single judge in a canonical trial.

So there are things that a cleric, and I was just reading this morning, discussions about how the woman deacon of history has always been considered a cleric.

Joe Grayland: There are certain things that are necessary, clerical status is necessary.

Now, does that also imply power?

Phyllis Zagano: Not necessarily.

You know, if you think of power in terms of authority, the woman who is the abbess in history may also have been a deacon, most likely was.

She has ultimate authority in her abbey and her abbey territories.

That authority is also given over to her by the members of her community.

So if we move back to the 21st century, and we find the authority that rests in the episcopacy, it is still given over by the people.

The authority to the bishop is given over by his priests and deacons, and the authority of the people of God is similarly given over.

I don't know, I was asked the other day about power and women asking to be deacons so they could have power.

And my answer is simply that if you're looking to be ordained to have power, you probably want to do something else.

But isn't that the problem?

Well, yeah, it is a problem, but you won't get much or any.

And certainly an individual who comes to be a deacon, just because he or she can't be a priest or a bishop, they'll be shown the door.

I mean, they're just two separate questions.

But again, let's return to the circle.

If we think about the way that a community can discern, and I know that the Australian meeting was not last summer, but the year before, I think it was, was contentious.

And I am aware that 18 Australian bishops voted down the original wording that included women deacons, and I think only five voted it down and one kind of abstained when they reworded it.

But there was still some admission that the people in that assembly did have some power to change things.

I have been described a couple of times as quite interested in the meeting. After tea time, two bishops stood with the rest of the people who refused to sit down or take their seats.

And I've talked to a couple of the bishops who were there.

And, you know, sometimes in families, discussions get tough, and I think this was one of them.

Joe Grayland - Women deacons a sign of a just Church

Why would you suggest that the deaconate for women would be a sign of a just church?

Would it be a sign of the end of discrimination?

Would it be a sign of a theological movement?

Would it be a sign of coming back to the original source?

Phyllis Zagano

You know, Mary Magdalene, for instance, proclaimed the resurrection?

Well, again, I said this before: the question of justice, it's not so much justice for me, and I want this job.

It's more justice for the people of God in a couple of different directions.

First of all, and I've said this quite often until the Holy Father has a woman proclaiming the gospel in St Peter's at a Mass he celebrates, the church really doesn't have the right to say women are to be recognised as equal and to be held as equally human to men.

I mean, it's as simple as that.

I've been told by officials of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, which is now the Dicastery for the Doctrine of the Faith, I've been told that women cannot image Christ.

I said, watch me. And I wrote a book about it.

You know, that women cannot image Christ is silly.

It's a silliness that is restricted to naive fiscalism.

If you think that only a man on this planet can represent in any way the love and beauty of the risen Christ...

And I think that (women representing the image of Christ) is the justice the church needs.

The church in justice needs to have the whole gospel proclaimed.

The church in justice needs to have all its people ministered to and ministered to as they need to be ministered to.

You know, the Holy Father, and twice I've heard him say this, once in a commission meeting and again in public, or actually first in public, to the International Unions of Superiors General.

He said, you know, he had spoken with an expert, a scholar of Syrian history, who told him that when a woman accused her husband of beating her, she would go to the woman deacon who would examine the bruises and then give testimony to the bishop.

Well, that to me says so much.

The bishop affirmed the testimony of a woman and probably did something about it.

I mean, it's almost an annulment, you know.

And so when you move to the present, when there is a single judge, the single judge is not going to be a woman.

So you will not have a woman going into us for an annulment, telling a single judge who would then give testimony basically to the bishop that there is reason for an annulment.

And that to me, I debated American Professor Sarah Butler at a seminary in Philadelphia years ago.

And she said, oh, women deacons only minister to other women.

I said, well, who ministers to women today?

I mean, even if you restrict the work of women deacons to other women, so what?

Joe Grayland - Cultural beliefs about women

Well, it takes us back to the original, as I mentioned, Mary of Magdala.

And the whole question that is subcutaneous there is about somebody proclaiming a truth when they are considered before the law to be incapable of proclaiming truth.

Yet when the Christian church takes it on, as you've just said, and a woman testifies for another woman in front of a bishop and the bishop does it, then you begin to see that there is a tradition that women are truth tellers within the church.

An uncomfortable tradition, possibly.

Phyllis Zagano

You know, that comes in collision, I think, with a lot of cultural beliefs about women.

I walked out of Mass the other day with a 82-year-old woman, religious, and I told her something that maybe she could mention to the pastor.

She said, well, he's not going to listen to us.

And the influence, well, the implication was he's a man and we're not.

And that's quite true.

And you do find that the stained glass ceiling does exist in other traditions who have ordained women to the diaconate and to priesthood, certainly in the Anglican communion.

Although there are more and more Anglican women bishops, not that I'm arguing for either Anglican bishops or priests, but there is the cultural problem of the way men in the world relate to women in the world.

And as I alluded to or said earlier, until the pope stands up and says, you know, that women are trustworthy enough to proclaim the gospel, even to preach, I don't think the church has the right.

And I will blame the church.

I will blame the church for female genital mutilation.

I'll blame the church for dowry burnings.

I'll blame the church for menstruation huts.

I'll blame the church for wife beating.

There are many instances around the world where women are really badly treated and denigrated and looked down upon.

And you don't know this.

I've suffered it myself.

You know, I love to go to places where they have no idea who I am and they treat me like I'm a dimwit.

I mean, you just laugh because it's so, it's so sad, really.

Joe Grayland - Synods affirm women's diaconate as sign of hope

Recently, you may be aware that in Austria the synodal process there has affirmed the decision of the women's diaconate as a sign of hope.

But, and here in Germany the same, and in various other places it's come through the synodal process.

However, on the other side of it, we've seen other people like Cardinal Sara and others in Africa talking very strongly against these Western European colonial ideas, with introducing the thing that I would describe as an African exceptionalism.

Where in sub-Saharan Africa, you know, the exception is that gay people can be mutilated, burnt, raped, and then killed.

It's perfectly okay for the African episcopate to accept that.

Possibly because they've got some other problems they think are much more important.

Like having to face down Islam, for instance, or as a scholar friend of mine who's in Tübingen at the moment from Nairobi has been informing me of the movement of young people back to the pre-colonial worship forms and understandings of God.

That's a context.

My point is this.

Is it possible that the push for women deacons, equality of women, to not accept, you know, the arguments of the menstruation huts and all the rest of it, is a thoroughly European, North American, white person, I don't know how you describe it.

It's become very difficult to describe.

But it's sort of our argument, but it's not an argument of the global South, which is also a sort of a silly sort of term, because the global South doesn't include places like Australia and New Zealand.

I mean, you know, from all of your travels, what do you think it's just, do you think we're the only ones really interested in it?

Or, you know, is it European, North American exceptionalism to have women or want women or need them?

Phyllis Zagano

Well, European, but probably not Italy, North American, but also Australia and South America and Central America.

I sat at a table with Wilfred Nepier in South Africa, the retired cardinal, who told me that he objected to my pushing Western ideas down his throat.

I said, well, no one's pushing anything down anybody's throat.

If your territory does not need or wish for women in the diaconate, it will not have it.

It's as simple as that.

If Austria and Germany find that the diaconate can include women and the church can accept it, and there is a need for it, then that's what it is.

I sat at a table with the bishops of Cambodia and Thailand, and I asked them about women in the diaconate.

They said, we wouldn't care, male or female, we need the help, number one, but you know what, we don't have enough educated people to make them deacons.

That was, I think, before the Holy Father invited the church to include women as acolytes and lectors.

I can see where, for example, in Cambodia and Thailand, formally training and installing women and men as lectors and acolytes would be a wonderful expansion of the church's ministry.

I think that the cultures that can accept the ordination of women will, and the cultures that cannot may move to have a greater understanding of the equality of women as human beings.

Even if they do not include women in their own diaconates, if they have diaconates at all, I think it could still be helpful as an example of the way women can and should be recognized and respected.

I'm certain that if, not actually if, when it rolls out, it'll be the same as the diaconate was rolled out after the Second Vatican Council.

That is, Episcopal conferences would need to decide if they would include women in their own diaconates, and Rome would approve their requests.

And then it would go back, and the Episcopal conferences would simply say to their bishops, individual bishops would make their own decisions about what they need in their diocese.

And one would hope, with an increase in synodality, that the bishop's decision could be a more synodal decision, and less of an individual "I'm in charge" decision, which the church suffers in too many places still.

Joe Grayland - Census fidei

Maybe there are other things going through your head and you would like to give us a sentence or some sort of phrase just to wrap up maybe the loose ends of this conversation.

Something that occurs to you that I haven't asked that I should have asked, or a point that you'd just like to emphasise before we wrap up.

Phyllis Zagano

Well, I think the thing I would like to emphasize is that the work of the church, the mission, you know, the synod talks about communion, mission, and participation.

As the dogmatic constitution of the church teaches, we must be in communion on matters of faith and morals.

You know, the census fidei is there, and it's very important.

The mission of the church to me is to spread the gospel and to act on the gospel of Jesus Christ.

And participation is who gets to do what.

And I think that's where we are in terms of figuring it out as we go along in our different cultures.

You know, Joe, you're in Germany. Others are listening in New Zealand, in Australia.

I'm in the United States.

Everybody has a different situation.

But if that situation and if that conversation has the gospel at its centre, I think that's where we will progress as human beings, certainly, and as Christians.

• This is a transcript of a conversation between Phyllis Zagano and Joe Grayland on the topic of the diaconate. The text has been edited in parts for flow.
• Phyllis Zagano is American author and academic. She has written and spoken on the role of women in the Roman Catholic Church and is an advocate for the ordination of women as deacons. She is a researcher and adjunct professor a Hofstra University. Her latest book is "Just Church: Catholic Social Teaching, Synodality, and Women".

She made the comments to Dr Joe Grayland from Tubingen University, Germany. in an interview for CathNews.

Deacons bring Gospel into action

Zagano, a leading scholar on the diaconate, argues that women deacons could be a tonic for the Church, revitalising it by bringing the gospel into action.

Asked why the Church needs deacons at all, Zagano said "The diaconate is really about bringing the gospel in action to the people of God".

Temporal and spiritual

Clarifying that the role of a deacon is both temporal and spiritual, Zagano said that historically deacons managed charity and performed weddings, baptisms and funerals.

She told Grayland that deacons' actions were crucial in spreading the gospel and restoring the diaconate, especially for women, and that they could help the Church address modern challenges.

"If we recover the diaconate today, I think the deacon would be the one to help get the chequebook out of the pastor's hands, spread the wealth around and take care of the poor" she said.

Diaconate - not an apprenticeship for priesthood

Zagano however has some reservations about the role of transitional deacons, those ordained as a step before priesthood, as they were serving as apprentices.

Questioning the necessity for this, she said there is one diaconate and that many people have said there's no reason to ordain anyone a deacon before that person is ordained a priest.

Clarifying, Zagano said being a deacon is about service and is the opposite of having power.

"I was asked the other day about power and women asking to be deacons so they could have power.

"My answer is simply that if you want to be ordained to have power, you should probably do something else.

Grayland asked Zagano whether having power is the issue. Zagano said that it is, but an individual will not get much or any power.

"Certainly an individual who comes to be a deacon just because he or she can't be a priest or a bishop will be shown the door; they are two separate questions."

A global perspective

Zagano acknowledges cultural differences within the global Church.

She acknowledges that some regions may be more receptive to the idea of women deacons while others face different challenges.

"If your territory does not need or wish for women in the diaconate, it will not have it" she says.

"But if Austria and Germany find that the diaconate can include women and the Church can accept it, and there is a need for it, then that's what it is."

She argues that the Church's mission should include all its people and that justice for women in the Church means recognising their equal humanity and ability to proclaim the gospel.

Zagano's advocacy for women deacons continues to spark significant debate within the Catholic Church.

Her call for justice and equality resonates with many, but the path forward remains contentious.

As discussions continue, the Church must balance tradition and modernity in its mission to spread the gospel and serve its global community.

Personal journey and advocacy

Zagano's interest in the diaconate stems from her own experience.

Archbishop Jean Jadot, Papal Nuncio to the US, encouraged her to pursue her studies and advocacy despite challenges.

During their conversation Jadot told her "Don't quit".

Today she continues her advocacy, emphasising the historical precedent and modern necessity of women deacons.

Read more on deacons in the Church

What is a Deacon?

Ten-year-old Beth asks her parents about the new deacon in the parish.

They explain the diaconate and she is surprised.

She quickly finds out that her classmates do not know what a deacon is or what a deacon does.

She and her and her friend Carol ask their CCD teacher, who explains what a deacon is today and helps them to begin to think about the future.

What is a Deacon by Irene Kelly

Just Church

Just Church engages the reader in the synodal pathway to a "Just Church" that can and should reflect its social teaching.

An important measure of justice is an ecclesiology open to participation by others beyond celibate clerics, especially in consideration of competing Catholic ecclesial bodies and methods of membership.

Just Church study guide - Phyllis Zagano's free Study Guide.

It is precisely such a "revisioning" that many historians and theologians of the diaconate have been engaged with for many years, so it is affirming to hear two prominent church leaders express such a view.

In particular, Cardinal Cupich and Cardinal McElroy raised the question of whether it remained necessary or even desirable to ordain seminarians to the diaconate prior to ordination to the presbyterate.

This suggestion is not new.

I want to offer some rationale as to why eliminating a seminary diaconate (what I have referred to elsewhere as an "apprentice model" of the diaconate) is not only possible but necessary for envisioning a mature and fully formed diaconate for the future.

By way of introduction, it should be remembered that in the ancient and early medieval church, direct ordination was common, with sequential ordination in the pattern of the cursus honorum a later development that developed regionally.

This system of "coming up through the ranks" was revamped and simplified at the request of the world's bishops at the Second Vatican Council and implemented by Pope Paul VI in 1972.

It should be noted that these changes affect the Latin Rite of the church.

The rite of tonsure (which brought a candidate into the clerical state and made him eligible to receive subsequent ordination) was suppressed, as were the minor orders of porter, lector, exorcist and acolyte.

Pope Paul retained the functions of lector and acolyte as lay ministries that no longer required ordination.

Finally, he turned his attention to the three major orders of subdeacon, deacon and presbyter.

He suppressed the subdiaconate and tied entrance into the clerical state to diaconal ordination. The pope's actions resulted in the three orders we currently have: episcopate, diaconate and presbyterate.

Experience in ministry

The overall purpose of sequential ordination was to ensure candidates for the higher orders had gained experience in ministry before assuming greater responsibilities.

In the seminary system, tonsure, the minor orders, then subdiaconate and diaconate were all tied to different stages of seminary formation.

Seminarians nearing the end of the process would be ordained deacons and then sent into a parish setting for a period of time prior to ordination into the presbyterate.

This has been replaced by a pastoral year that normally precedes diaconal ordination.

In a practical sense, one might question the purpose of requiring ordination to the diaconate as a prerequisite to presbyteral ordination.

Of course, it is sometimes suggested that diaconal ordination is essential for those en route to the presbyterate (and episcopate) because it grounds them in the foundation of all ministry: the church's diakonia.

While this sounds reasonable, it would also seem to be the case that all ministry, lay, religious and ordained, is to be grounded in diakonia and therefore more of an effect of baptism than holy orders.

The new edition of the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops' Program of Priestly Formation includes a "Vocational Synthesis Stage," during which a seminarian-deacon would go "outside the walls" of the seminary into a parish assignment for some period of time, likely six to 12 months.

The text takes pains to declare that this is not a stage in which the seminarian is undergoing "on-the-job" training, but that he is coming into a fuller appreciation of the demands and blessings of the clerical state.

Still, the whole feel of this section of the program of formation is of an apprenticeship, as the seminarian-deacon is incorporated into the community of the clergy within the diocese, an incorporation that is still focused on his eventual ordination into the presbyterate, not an appreciation of the diaconate in its own sacramental identity.

The sacramental "goal" lies ahead.

Finally, I would further point out that a seminarian's formation, no matter how lengthy, is focused in one direction: the presbyterate.

At no point is the seminarian discerning a vocation to the diaconate, which serves merely as a final step in his preparation for presbyterate.

It is truly an apprenticeship model. But a vocation to one order does not and should not presume a vocation to another.

Words matter

With this in mind, let us turn to two major considerations revealed in the language often used to describe the diaconate.

First, we must immediately retire the use of adjectives to describe a deacon as either a "permanent" deacon or a "transitional" deacon.

For decades now, scholars and bishops have pointed out that there is only one Order of Deacons, just as there is only one Order of Presbyters and one Order of Bishops.

All ordinations are permanent, so calling a deacon a "permanent" one is redundant, and calling a seminarian-deacon a "transitional" deacon is sacramentally wrong.

All deacons are permanent.

We do not refer to a presbyter who is later ordained a bishop as a "transitional" priest!

The U.S.C.C.B. recognized this years ago and renamed the secretariat responsible for the diaconate.

It had been known as the Secretariat for the Permanent Diaconate, and the actual Committee of Bishops responsible was known as the Committee on the Permanent Diaconate.

In the mid-1990s, the word "permanent" was removed from both the committee's name and its supporting secretariat.

Although this realization was made decades ago, we still encounter references to men being ordained into the permanent diaconate or into the transitional diaconate, as if there were two separate orders of deacons.

Why is this such a big deal? Because words matter.

To think of the diaconate as a temporary stop on the road to somewhere else minimizes the sacramental significance of where one is already.

How many deacon-seminarians have heard comments on the day of their diaconal ordination, "Well, you're almost there, aren't you?"

And how many so-called permanent deacons have heard, "O.K., so when is your real ordination?" meaning, "When will you be ordained to the presbyterate?"

One newly-ordained deacon recalls a family member commenting after his ordination that the ceremony "was almost like a real ordination"!

A deacon is a deacon is a deacon.

Maintaining an apprentice model in the seminary dilutes and distorts all of this.

Second, the apprentice model perpetuates a distorted image of the diaconate.

As experienced by a seminarian, the diaconate is largely liturgical, school-based and, if the seminarian is lucky, parish-based.

This makes sense if the diaconate is seen as a kind of "on-the-job training" for the presbyterate.

But it does not reflect the realities, challenges and lifelong commitment to the diaconate faced by other deacons not aspiring or preparing for the priesthood. Continue reading

That sums up the synod and the state of the Catholic Church's attitude toward change.

In October, hundreds of bishops, joined by lay men and women, priests, deacons, religious sisters and brothers met for nearly a month in Rome for the Synod on Synodality.

At its end, the synod released a synthesis report brimming with the hope and the promise that the church would be a more listening church.

Some 54 women voted at the synod. Back home, women are still ignored.

Why?

It is not because women quote the Second Vatican Council at parish council meetings. It is because too many bishops and pastors ignore parish councils.

It is not because women of the world do not write to their pastors and bishops. It is because without large checks, their letters are ignored.

The Synod on Synodality was groundbreaking in part because it was more about learning to listen.

It was more about the process than about results. Its aim was to get the whole church on board with a new way of relating, of having "conversations in the Spirit," where listening and prayer feed discernment and decision-making.

Even now, the project faces roadblocks. At their November meeting this week in Baltimore, U.S. bishops heard presentations by Brownsville, Texas, Bishop Daniel Flores, who has led the two-year national synod process so far.

His brother bishops did not look interested.

To be fair, some bishops in some dioceses, in the U.S. and other parts of the world, are on board with Pope Francis' attempt to encourage the church to accept the reforms of Vatican II, to listen to the people of God.

Too many bishops are having none of it

The synod recognized the church's global infection with narcissistic clericalism.

It said fine things about women in leadership and the care of other marginalized people. Yet the synod remains a secret in many places. Its good words don't reach the people in the pews.

Ask about synodality in any parish, and you might hear "Oh, we don't do that here." You are equally likely to hear "When I" sermons ("When I was in seminary," "When I was in another parish"), and not about the Gospel.

Folks who were excited by Francis' openness and pastoral message just shake their heads.

The women who want to contribute, who want to belong, are more than dispirited.

They have had it.

And they are no longer walking toward the door — they are running, bringing their husbands, children and chequebooks with them.

In the Diocese of Brooklyn, it was recently discovered that Mass attendance had dropped 40 percent since 2017.

It is the same in too many places.

The reason the church is wobbling is not a lack of piety.

It is because women are ignored.

Their complaints only reach as far as the storied circular file.

What do women complain about?

Women complain about bad sermons, as discussed. Autocratic pastors. And the big one: pederasty.

If truth be told, women do not trust unmarried men with their children.

Worldwide, in diocese after diocese, new revelations continue. Still.

Many bishops and pastors understand this.

Francis certainly does, but he is constrained by clerics who dig their heels into a past many of them never knew.

More and more young (and older) priests pine for the 1950s, when priests wore lace and women knew their place. That imagining does not include synodality.

Will the synod effort work?

Francis' opening to women in church management is promising. Where women are in the chancery, there is more opportunity for women's voices to be heard. No doubt, a few more women there could help.

Getting women into the sacristy is trickier.

While it seems most synod members agreed about restoring women to the ordained diaconate as a recognition of the baptismal equality of all, some stalwarts argued it was against Tradition.

Still, others saw the spectre of a "Western gender ideology" seeking to confuse the roles of men and women.

So, they asked for a review of the research. Again.

Women know the obvious: Women were ordained as deacons.

There will never be complete agreement on the facts of history, anthropology and theology. Women have said this over and over.

If there is absolute evidence that women cannot be restored to the ordained diaconate, it should be presented, and a decision made.

The women have finished speaking about it.

• Phyllis Zagano is an author at Religion News Service. She has written and spoken on the role of women in the Roman Catholic Church and is an advocate for the ordination of women as deacons.

Their service illustrates that "to love is to serve and to serve is to reign," Pope Francis says.

Francis made the comment when he met most of the Diocese of Rome's 137 permanent deacons, their wives, children and grandchildren on Saturday.

The liturgical role of deacons is important, but works of charity and outreach are at the heart of their identity, Francis said.

Describing the purpose of diaconal ordination as "a ministry of service," the Second Vatican Council restored the identity the ministry had for centuries before it was "reduced to an order of passage to the priesthood," the pope told them.

Service "helps to overcome the scourge of clericalism," Francis explained.

At its core, clericalism is "a priestly caste ‘above' the people of God," - somethig Francis wants to banish for good.

"If this is not resolved, clericalism will continue in the church...

"Deacons, precisely because they are dedicated to the service of this people, are a reminder that in the ecclesial body no one can elevate himself above others," Francis said.

The declining number of priests has led to some permanent deacons administering parishes.

These tasks "do not constitute the specific nature of the diaconate. They are substitute tasks," Francis told the group.

He went on to praise a recent decision to appoint a permanent deacon to head the massive diocesan Caritas program.

Cardinal Angelo de Donatis, papal vicar for Rome's decision in this respect emphasizes the true identity of deacons who are not "half-priests" or "special altar boys," Francis he said.

Instead, they are called to be "caring servants who do their best to ensure that no one is excluded and the love of the Lord touches people's lives in a tangible way."

While all Christians are called to imitate Jesus, this is especially important for those who minister in his name, Francis said. They are called to humble themselves and make themselves the servants of all.

"Please remember that for the disciples of Jesus, to love is to serve and to serve is to reign. Power lies in service, not in anything else."

Francis went on to explain that service is "the center of the mystery of the church,". Without it, every ministry is emptied from within, becomes sterile and then worldly.

Deacons remind the whole church of the missionary power of love and service, bringing "God's closeness to others without imposing themselves, serving with humility and joy."

"The generosity of a deacon who gives of himself without seeking the top ranks has about him the perfume of the Gospel," Francis said.

"He tells of the greatness of God's humility in taking the first step — always, God always takes the first step — to meet even those who have turned their backs on him."

Source

• Crux Now
• Image:Exaudi Catholic News
  

The priests came from from 144 dioceses and 25 countries and were about a third of the camp's total population.

Of the around 2,700 clergy imprisoned at Dachau, about 2,400 were Catholic priests, Dianne Traflet explained to conference attendees.

"It [the Dachau clergy] was the largest religious community living together in the history of the Catholic Church," she said.

Traflet, who is an assistant professor of pastoral theology and the associate dean of graduate studies at Seton Hall University in South Orange, said faith and hope flickered and often flourished in Dachau's Cell Block 26 where the priests were held.

This was despite the camp's routine of hunger, torture, medical experimentation and mass executions.

The priests held theological conversations, Bible studies, conducted baptisms, heard confessions and wrote a multi-lingual dictionary of basic phrases so they could comfort the sick and dying in their native tongues.

A deacon was even ordained to the priesthood, while escaping detection, Traflet said.

Traflet told the conference the priests would also talk and pray about how to help the Church, "wracked by the loss of so many clergy."

They started thinking of restoring the permanent diaconate to help multiply the numbers "of ordained men who could bring comfort and news of salvation to the afflicted in this era of priestly attrition."

The priests also thought married men could more easily blend in while doing their work in mission countries and in times of religious persecution, whereas priests were more visible targets because of their more public lives and manner of dress, Traflet told the conference.

Source

• Crux Now
• Image: Fr John Peck

Pope Francis told French newspaper La Croix that it is often a mistake to "clericalise" talented laity by turning them into deacons.

"In Buenos Aires, I have known many good priests who, seeing a capable lay person, immediately exclaimed ‘Let's make him a deacon'," Francis said.

"No, you must let the lay person be lay."

Continue reading

The deacons come from six different Pacific Island nations.

Three were ordained for the Archdiocese of Samoa-Apia.

Two are members of the Congregation of the Mission (Vincentians) from the Solomon Islands.

Three are Missionaries of the Sacred Heart, (MSC) two from Kiribati and one from Fiji.

Two are Marists (Society of Mary), one from Vanuatu and one from Tonga

See list of Deacons and Photographs

Cardinal Soane Patita Mafi is the first former student of the Pacific Regional Seminary to be named a Cardinal.

Since 1972 Pacific Regional Seminary offers training for the Roman Catholic priesthood for candidates from the various dioceses of Episcopal Conference of the Pacific (CEPAC) and for religious congregations with houses affiliated to the Seminary.

The Seminary offers a Diploma in Theology and a Bachelor of Divinity which are accredited by the South Pacific Association of Theological Schools (SPATS).

In addition, since it is affiliated to the Urbaniana University in Rome, the students of PRS who complete the requirements can also obtain a Bachelor of Theology degree.

The Archbishops and Bishops of CEPAC constitute the Seminary's Board of Trustees which sets policies and sees to the supervision of priestly formation at the Seminary.

A Senate composed of four bishops is elected by the Board of Trustees for a term of three years.

The Senate looks after the general administration and supervision of the seminary.

The Rector and the members of Staff take care of the details of the day to day administration.

Two representatives of the affiliated colleges, elected from among the congregations who have affiliated colleges, also participate in the deliberations of the Senate.

Bishop Seamus Cunningham of Hexham and Newcastle proposed the motion at the bishops' plenary meeting last month.

He did this on behalf of the Council of Priests in his diocese.

The proposal was rejected after a "thoughtful discussion", he told his diocesan paper.

"Arguments have been put forward that with the declining number of priests, ordaining married men who are proven in their Christian life, would allow the faithful not to be starved from the sacrament, especially the Eucharist," he said.

Bishop Cunningham said that many bishops noted that the tradition of the Church for more than 1000 years was that the priesthood and celibacy were a sign and symbol of an interior dedication to Christ and his kingdom and were intimately linked.

He added: "Any separation of them as a norm of the Church would change the nature of how we see the priesthood."

Bishop Cunningham went on to say that "acknowledgement was made of those married priests who serve in our parishes at the moment" especially former Anglicans and members of the Ordinariate.

He said: "At the heart of the priesthood is sacrifice; the sacrifice of the Mass where Christ gives himself for the salvation of the world, and the sacrifice of the priest who offers his life for his people.

"In the context of this wide ranging discussion, the bishops maintained the traditional teaching of the Church for a celibate priesthood."

Meanwhile, veteran Vatican correspondent Sandro Magister sees the ordination of married men to the priesthood as a possible theme for the next synod of bishops.

Magister noted the significance of Pope Francis's visit next year to Chiapas in San Cristóbal de Las Casas diocese in Mexico, where there are only a few elderly priests, but hundreds of married "indigenous" deacons.

Sources

• Catholic Herald
• L'Espresso
• Image: Crux

The ordinations took place in Sacred Heart Cathedral in Suva on Sunday 22 April.

The six men are studying to become priests. The Fijians are training for the Diocesan priesthood while the Solomon Islanders are to be priests of the Society of Mary.

The Archbishop told the newly ordained that they were on their way to priesthood and he would be praying for them to arrive at their destination.

After the ordination, one of the deacons, Oliva Navoli Vudivou, explained that he had to meet many requirements during his training period.

"During and after the seven-year training, we are constantly assessed by our superiors and the people we serve," he said.

"Our performances, how we interact with the congregation, spiritual and physical life, how one conducts himself every day these things along with many others are assessed."

Source

• The Fiji Times - Ordination Service
• The Fiji Times - Interview with one of the Deacons
• Image: Roman Catholic Vocations

"I lost a very dear friend this week. We had known each other for only a few years but we got together regularly to talk about life and faith and all sorts of other things", says Garth George.

"He was a man rich in years, rich in experience and rich in wisdom and was always prepared to share his life with others."

George says there are now several dozen permanent deacons in the Hamilton and Auckland dioceses - in itself a lasting memorial to the life of Mike Ryan.

• Read Garth George's column in the Rotorua Daily Post
• Read more of Garth George's columns

Garth George is a columnist, who is published in the NZ Herald